Director Eytan Fox Walks on Water
from the 3/16/05 issue of Windy City Times
by Richard Knight, Jr.
Director Eytan Fox, the Walk on Water Israeli poster and the stars of his wonderful film
Gay film director Eytan Fox works closely with his screenwriter, Gal Uchovsky. Very closely. For 16 years, in
fact, they’ve been one of Israel’s most prominent gay couples. Fox is perhaps best known in the states for his
2002 Yossi & Jagger, the story of two gay soldiers in the Israeli Army. Now, his theatrical follow-up, the
wonderfully entertaining yet contemplative Walk on the Water, a major hit in Israel, is being released in
America. The film (reviewed HERE) opens this Friday at the Music Box. Highlights from our conversation:
WCT: So, how are you? Where are you?
EF: I’m good, I’m excited. I’m getting ready to leave my hotel room and go to the sneak preview that the
Boston Jewish Film Festival has organized for the film. It’s been kind of hectic but exciting. I’ve been to San
Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, New York, Washington, you name it.
WCT: Selling, selling that film – c’mon, buy it already!
EF: No but for me it’s the biggest opening in the states of a film of mine and it’s one of the biggest, maybe the
biggest for an Israeli film and it’s very important to do as much work as possible to get the film out there and
get people to know it. We’re competing against all these big American films that everyone cares about and
French or even Italian films. People know of their film culture. People know very little if at all about Israeli
films. There wasn’t much to know about until a few years ago, I think.
WCT: I have to tell that I found the title Walk on Water so apt because to me this was like this a little,
miraculous film. It’s so multi-layered and works on so many levels, there were so many contrasts within it –
German/Jewish, Israeli/Palestine, Young/Old, Gay/Straight. It confronts all those things really well. I think
it’s a wonderful film and I hope that all this beating of the drums really helps. Where did Gal Uchovsky, the
screenwriter (and your partner), get the idea for this?
EF: Well, the truth is that I brought the idea (laughs).
WCT: Oh, okay, it was your idea. So where did you get the idea because I know you work together.
EF: Yes, the way it usually works is that I come up with the story and characters and build up the whole thing
through the treatment stage and then he comes in with his amazing writing abilities and adds the dialogue and
the descriptions of the scenes—
WCT: Do you make him go into a room by himself or does he say, ‘Get out – go downstairs and make dinner’?
EF: Yes – he goes into a room and I start vacuuming during that period when he’s writing (laughs).
WCT: Okay, so seven years ago you’re driving by a Kibbetz—please pronounce it correctly for me—
EF: Kibbutz
WCT: Thank you. –a Kibbutz and you think, ‘Gee, what about the idea of a young German lady?’ Where did
the idea come from?
EF: Well, it came from all different kinds of influences. One of them being maybe the fact that when I was 17
I was in a folk dancing troupe in Jerusalem and they told us they were we going to Germany to perform and
we were scared but we were also excited, happy, very anxious to meet German people. We thought we’d
meet these tall, blonde, humorless bad people. That’s what we really thought. So we went to Germany and
stayed with kids our age and we always expected something bad to happen – which never did – but we met
some amazing young people who were so different than we were. They were socially aware, environmentally
conscious and politically correct and I thought, ‘What is going on here?’ We were these tough, aggressive
people and they were soft and sweet, life loving, caring people and that got me started thinking about what we
grew up and what we believed and what’s really happening and how we develop these collective identities or
psychologies that are an opposition or reaction or alternative to our past, to our parents, our grandparents.
That was one influence.
Then I heard this story from my shrink about a Mossad agent who comes home one day and finds his wife
hanging from the ceiling, she’s killed herself and she’d left him a note – as opposed to the film where the note
is seen at the end. The note describes how difficult, how impossible, how terrible life has become with him
being this tough man that he is. A killer who kills for his job or his life or whatever.
WCT: Excuse my ignorance but is the Mossad a sanctioned organization in Israel like the CIA here?
EF: Very much but the Mossad is very much more closed than the CIA and no one knows anything about it.
Just telling the public who the head of the Mossad is just started like two or three years ago. It’s like the
Shrine of secrecy.
Then this guy – just like the character of Eyal in the film – after his wife kills himself represses what happens,
goes on to the next mission and starts having these anxiety attacks and they insist that he go to the
psychologist and he decides to leave the Mossad and then goes to the University. There he studies all these
things you would never imagine him studying – like literature, philosophy, art history and he meets this young
man – a younger man who’s a different kind of Israeli from a different generation and they fall in love. The
psychologist was writing this article and didn’t know what to do with it. He realized that the sexual thing
wasn’t important, what’s important is the fact that this man is emotionally changing and he’s allowing himself
to experience things that he’s never allowed before. And after half a year of this relationship going on he
meets the lover’s sister, falls in love with her and starts a new family.
When I heard this story it completely blew my mind, I completely understood why this man needs this new life.
WCT: Wow, so much of this is true?
EF: Yeah, yeah.
WCT: I’m just kind of awestruck by hearing that. Is the attitude that Eyal has about taking the assignment in
the film to track the old Nazi, that, ‘Who cares, the Nazi’s are all a thing of the past’ – is that typical of the
younger generation?
EF: That could be typical of younger people in Israel on the one hand then on the other hand this guy wants to
do the real important stuff which is killing Arabs so why are you giving me this sissy job, why don’t you give
me the real thing? I think also on a deeper level he is repressing or denying how much he is affected by the
Holocaust because he’s the son of Holocaust survivors. You realize by the end of the movie, of course, how
much the Holocaust is an important part of his psyche but he’s not understanding that.
WCT: Again, I just keep going back to how multi-layered the movie is. It’s definitely a movie I want to see
again. I’m curious because I write for a gay and lesbian paper. There seems to be a hint at one point that the
relationship might have gone in a different direction between Eyal and Axel?
EF: Yes, definitely. That story I just told you is true but I don’t know why I never sat and thought about but
just somehow – and I’m not shy about doing gay sex scenes – I’ve done that for television and in my movie
Yossi & Jagger – but somehow I felt it took the focus away from what was really important which was the
emotional stuff. The fact that this straight guy needs this gay guy in order to change or to become a better
person is what was more important.
WCT: And that’s what I loved – that it didn’t go there – because it was shaped to move in that direction. I like
that it was unexpected. So what about generational attitudes with regard to gay people? In the states we’re
certainly in the midst of a very conservative ruling class once again that seems very hard edged about gay
people – I refer to them as Those We Don’t Speak Of – taking my cue from the movie The Village—
EF: That’s funny!
WCT: But the younger people seem to be much cooler about it. Is that generally true in Israel as well?
EF: Yes, that’s generally true in Israel as well. You know, Israel is a very straight country. On the one hand
things have changed amazingly in the last ten years and I am proud to say that my television work and films
are part of that and I don’t know if you know Dana International? Do you know this woman?
WCT: Oh my God! I was going to ask you about her when we were done talking about the movie.
EF: She’s mentioned in the film.
WCT: I missed it. When I was in Haifa in ’96 I bought one of her CDs because the kid at the music store told
me she was the reigning club diva. She’s the female impersonator or transsexual, right?
EF: Yes. She was chosen by Israel public television in this music competition called the Euro Vision which is
Europe’s gay musical Olympics. It’s not formally gay but it has a huge gay following. It’s this competition
where every country sends a song – you know like Abba – that’s how they start. So Israel sent Dana
International and she won with this song “Diva” which opened the gates for her and the Ministry of whatever
hugged her. So that’s on one hand but on the other hand it’s religion and the army and every once in a while
there’s this big regression, this backlash where the Arabs are going to kill us and throw us into the sea so we
have to be strong and tough and none of this soft, wishy-washy, peacenik talk.
But still, Tel Aviv is an amazing city as far as gay life goes and gay rights.
WCT: Are there legal rights? Can you be married or be in the army?
EF: You can’t be married but you can be in the army. When I was younger people would say to me, “Well, use
the gay excuse to leave the army” and sometimes people are dismissed because they want to be dismissed for
being gay and can’t handle it. Today they would say, “Being gay is no problem, you have to serve, it’s an army
of the people, we need everyone.” We have stories of high ranking officers coming out and saying, “We’re
gay” which is wonderful! My film Yossi & Jagger was about a love relationship between two male officers in
the Israeli officers during the Lebanese war.
WCT: I’m terrible that I haven’t seen it.
EF: I forgive you, it’s okay! But it was a film that was loved by Israeli’s like mad – that’s my point – and it
was mind boggling to me. How could this be? Such a macho society, why would people embrace this film? It
made me realize how much Israel has changed and how much people realize that change is needed and that
the old fashioned story that we’ve been telling ourselves is not true anymore and that we need different
angles on that story. There’s still too much death and sadness and mourning there in that story.
WCT: You also touch on that when Axel picks up the Arab guy and then Eyal’s reaction to him is so horrible.
EF: Right because first of all he’s homophobic and on the other hand, he’s jealous and doesn’t want to admit
it. All these emotional things are happening between he and Axel and he doesn’t understand it. Plus the fact
that he’s losing control. He didn’t know that Axel was gay and he wants to regain his power over the
situation. Israel’s a very complicated place but a very interesting place as well.
WCT: I seem to remember, I didn’t spend much time there in Haifa, but it seems very modernized, very
Westernized. I felt like I was in Chicago but then the tour guide points out the Scud Mall because that’s where
the Scud missiles just hit yesterday and then seeing the military presence everywhere and realizing—
EF: You weren’t in Kansas anymore (laughs).
WCT: That was in ’96 – but you say things have changed?
EF: In many ways things have changed and in other ways they haven’t. Israel is a tricky place but young
people are really into changing our lives and are sick and tired of this ongoing war.
WCT: As a gay filmmaker it sounds like you haven’t really experienced any kind of backlash or
discrimination? It sounds like the opposite has happened.
EF: Yes, that’s strange, isn’t it? But it’s true.
WCT: What about for the actor that played Eyal?
EF: He’s amazing. He’s really like the George Clooney of Israel. He’s the biggest star in Israel and he always
says the right things when he’s interviewed and when the film came out decided that it’s part of our process
together that he’s going to push it a little further as this big celebrity in Israel. So when the film came out he
went on national television and talked about this love affair that he had as a man.
WCT: Oh my God, really?
EF: Yeah – he did that and he’s not ashamed of that. He said he was happy he went through that and it was
good and he realized that he wants to be with women but that was a wonderful, important experience for him.
Think of Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise doing that?
WCT: That’s a little harder to picture…
EF: (laughs) Then he decided we should do something for Time Out Tel Aviv and we took this picture where
he was nude hugging me (I was dressed) – it was amazing, a beautiful picture like a John Lennon-Yoko Ono
picture and there’s another one where I’m holding him in his arms. He’s a wonderful man.
WCT: He sounds like it.
EF: I’m talking so fast because they’re waiting for me and I want to keep talking to you because I see how
much you’ve understood the film and not everyone gets all the tough things you’ve been talking about and I
wanted to try to describe what an experience this film was for me and for Israel and hopefully now people in
America will be getting a chance to see it.
WCT: Well, it’s a beautifully nuanced piece and obviously the close collaboration you have with Gal has paid
off. I can’t wait to be the last gay man in Chicago to see Yossi & Jagger.
EF: I’m happy to say it’s at Blockbuster.
WCT: What are you doing next?
EF: The working title is “The Bubble,” which is a term used by Israeli’s to describe life in Tel-Aviv is a love
story between a young, very young, 21, who has just finished his Army service and a young Palestinian. It’s
this love affair between these two men and there’s a lot of complications. The Palestinian is falling in love
with this Israeli and contemplating becoming a suicide bomber at the same time.
WCT: Will it take on elements of that documentary The Garden?
EF: Yeah! And that amazing documentary called Check Points. It will be different aspects of our reality
coming together again but more of a love story between two men.
WCT: That’s one thing that I came away from the film with. In Israel, with everything else that you’ve
experienced, being gay is liked, “Oh, please…” Is that true? Is it the least of our worries?
EF: It’s a combination and I think you’ve pointed that out – being gay in a world which is so macho, being so
fearful of gays – all these things connect and I think it’s important to point that out.
WCT: Well, it’s a wonderful film and I thank you for your time. I wish you all the luck with it and I look
forward to your future work.
from the 3/16/05 issue of Windy City Times
by Richard Knight, Jr.
Director Eytan Fox, the Walk on Water Israeli poster and the stars of his wonderful film
Gay film director Eytan Fox works closely with his screenwriter, Gal Uchovsky. Very closely. For 16 years, in
fact, they’ve been one of Israel’s most prominent gay couples. Fox is perhaps best known in the states for his
2002 Yossi & Jagger, the story of two gay soldiers in the Israeli Army. Now, his theatrical follow-up, the
wonderfully entertaining yet contemplative Walk on the Water, a major hit in Israel, is being released in
America. The film (reviewed HERE) opens this Friday at the Music Box. Highlights from our conversation:
WCT: So, how are you? Where are you?
EF: I’m good, I’m excited. I’m getting ready to leave my hotel room and go to the sneak preview that the
Boston Jewish Film Festival has organized for the film. It’s been kind of hectic but exciting. I’ve been to San
Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, New York, Washington, you name it.
WCT: Selling, selling that film – c’mon, buy it already!
EF: No but for me it’s the biggest opening in the states of a film of mine and it’s one of the biggest, maybe the
biggest for an Israeli film and it’s very important to do as much work as possible to get the film out there and
get people to know it. We’re competing against all these big American films that everyone cares about and
French or even Italian films. People know of their film culture. People know very little if at all about Israeli
films. There wasn’t much to know about until a few years ago, I think.
WCT: I have to tell that I found the title Walk on Water so apt because to me this was like this a little,
miraculous film. It’s so multi-layered and works on so many levels, there were so many contrasts within it –
German/Jewish, Israeli/Palestine, Young/Old, Gay/Straight. It confronts all those things really well. I think
it’s a wonderful film and I hope that all this beating of the drums really helps. Where did Gal Uchovsky, the
screenwriter (and your partner), get the idea for this?
EF: Well, the truth is that I brought the idea (laughs).
WCT: Oh, okay, it was your idea. So where did you get the idea because I know you work together.
EF: Yes, the way it usually works is that I come up with the story and characters and build up the whole thing
through the treatment stage and then he comes in with his amazing writing abilities and adds the dialogue and
the descriptions of the scenes—
WCT: Do you make him go into a room by himself or does he say, ‘Get out – go downstairs and make dinner’?
EF: Yes – he goes into a room and I start vacuuming during that period when he’s writing (laughs).
WCT: Okay, so seven years ago you’re driving by a Kibbetz—please pronounce it correctly for me—
EF: Kibbutz
WCT: Thank you. –a Kibbutz and you think, ‘Gee, what about the idea of a young German lady?’ Where did
the idea come from?
EF: Well, it came from all different kinds of influences. One of them being maybe the fact that when I was 17
I was in a folk dancing troupe in Jerusalem and they told us they were we going to Germany to perform and
we were scared but we were also excited, happy, very anxious to meet German people. We thought we’d
meet these tall, blonde, humorless bad people. That’s what we really thought. So we went to Germany and
stayed with kids our age and we always expected something bad to happen – which never did – but we met
some amazing young people who were so different than we were. They were socially aware, environmentally
conscious and politically correct and I thought, ‘What is going on here?’ We were these tough, aggressive
people and they were soft and sweet, life loving, caring people and that got me started thinking about what we
grew up and what we believed and what’s really happening and how we develop these collective identities or
psychologies that are an opposition or reaction or alternative to our past, to our parents, our grandparents.
That was one influence.
Then I heard this story from my shrink about a Mossad agent who comes home one day and finds his wife
hanging from the ceiling, she’s killed herself and she’d left him a note – as opposed to the film where the note
is seen at the end. The note describes how difficult, how impossible, how terrible life has become with him
being this tough man that he is. A killer who kills for his job or his life or whatever.
WCT: Excuse my ignorance but is the Mossad a sanctioned organization in Israel like the CIA here?
EF: Very much but the Mossad is very much more closed than the CIA and no one knows anything about it.
Just telling the public who the head of the Mossad is just started like two or three years ago. It’s like the
Shrine of secrecy.
Then this guy – just like the character of Eyal in the film – after his wife kills himself represses what happens,
goes on to the next mission and starts having these anxiety attacks and they insist that he go to the
psychologist and he decides to leave the Mossad and then goes to the University. There he studies all these
things you would never imagine him studying – like literature, philosophy, art history and he meets this young
man – a younger man who’s a different kind of Israeli from a different generation and they fall in love. The
psychologist was writing this article and didn’t know what to do with it. He realized that the sexual thing
wasn’t important, what’s important is the fact that this man is emotionally changing and he’s allowing himself
to experience things that he’s never allowed before. And after half a year of this relationship going on he
meets the lover’s sister, falls in love with her and starts a new family.
When I heard this story it completely blew my mind, I completely understood why this man needs this new life.
WCT: Wow, so much of this is true?
EF: Yeah, yeah.
WCT: I’m just kind of awestruck by hearing that. Is the attitude that Eyal has about taking the assignment in
the film to track the old Nazi, that, ‘Who cares, the Nazi’s are all a thing of the past’ – is that typical of the
younger generation?
EF: That could be typical of younger people in Israel on the one hand then on the other hand this guy wants to
do the real important stuff which is killing Arabs so why are you giving me this sissy job, why don’t you give
me the real thing? I think also on a deeper level he is repressing or denying how much he is affected by the
Holocaust because he’s the son of Holocaust survivors. You realize by the end of the movie, of course, how
much the Holocaust is an important part of his psyche but he’s not understanding that.
WCT: Again, I just keep going back to how multi-layered the movie is. It’s definitely a movie I want to see
again. I’m curious because I write for a gay and lesbian paper. There seems to be a hint at one point that the
relationship might have gone in a different direction between Eyal and Axel?
EF: Yes, definitely. That story I just told you is true but I don’t know why I never sat and thought about but
just somehow – and I’m not shy about doing gay sex scenes – I’ve done that for television and in my movie
Yossi & Jagger – but somehow I felt it took the focus away from what was really important which was the
emotional stuff. The fact that this straight guy needs this gay guy in order to change or to become a better
person is what was more important.
WCT: And that’s what I loved – that it didn’t go there – because it was shaped to move in that direction. I like
that it was unexpected. So what about generational attitudes with regard to gay people? In the states we’re
certainly in the midst of a very conservative ruling class once again that seems very hard edged about gay
people – I refer to them as Those We Don’t Speak Of – taking my cue from the movie The Village—
EF: That’s funny!
WCT: But the younger people seem to be much cooler about it. Is that generally true in Israel as well?
EF: Yes, that’s generally true in Israel as well. You know, Israel is a very straight country. On the one hand
things have changed amazingly in the last ten years and I am proud to say that my television work and films
are part of that and I don’t know if you know Dana International? Do you know this woman?
WCT: Oh my God! I was going to ask you about her when we were done talking about the movie.
EF: She’s mentioned in the film.
WCT: I missed it. When I was in Haifa in ’96 I bought one of her CDs because the kid at the music store told
me she was the reigning club diva. She’s the female impersonator or transsexual, right?
EF: Yes. She was chosen by Israel public television in this music competition called the Euro Vision which is
Europe’s gay musical Olympics. It’s not formally gay but it has a huge gay following. It’s this competition
where every country sends a song – you know like Abba – that’s how they start. So Israel sent Dana
International and she won with this song “Diva” which opened the gates for her and the Ministry of whatever
hugged her. So that’s on one hand but on the other hand it’s religion and the army and every once in a while
there’s this big regression, this backlash where the Arabs are going to kill us and throw us into the sea so we
have to be strong and tough and none of this soft, wishy-washy, peacenik talk.
But still, Tel Aviv is an amazing city as far as gay life goes and gay rights.
WCT: Are there legal rights? Can you be married or be in the army?
EF: You can’t be married but you can be in the army. When I was younger people would say to me, “Well, use
the gay excuse to leave the army” and sometimes people are dismissed because they want to be dismissed for
being gay and can’t handle it. Today they would say, “Being gay is no problem, you have to serve, it’s an army
of the people, we need everyone.” We have stories of high ranking officers coming out and saying, “We’re
gay” which is wonderful! My film Yossi & Jagger was about a love relationship between two male officers in
the Israeli officers during the Lebanese war.
WCT: I’m terrible that I haven’t seen it.
EF: I forgive you, it’s okay! But it was a film that was loved by Israeli’s like mad – that’s my point – and it
was mind boggling to me. How could this be? Such a macho society, why would people embrace this film? It
made me realize how much Israel has changed and how much people realize that change is needed and that
the old fashioned story that we’ve been telling ourselves is not true anymore and that we need different
angles on that story. There’s still too much death and sadness and mourning there in that story.
WCT: You also touch on that when Axel picks up the Arab guy and then Eyal’s reaction to him is so horrible.
EF: Right because first of all he’s homophobic and on the other hand, he’s jealous and doesn’t want to admit
it. All these emotional things are happening between he and Axel and he doesn’t understand it. Plus the fact
that he’s losing control. He didn’t know that Axel was gay and he wants to regain his power over the
situation. Israel’s a very complicated place but a very interesting place as well.
WCT: I seem to remember, I didn’t spend much time there in Haifa, but it seems very modernized, very
Westernized. I felt like I was in Chicago but then the tour guide points out the Scud Mall because that’s where
the Scud missiles just hit yesterday and then seeing the military presence everywhere and realizing—
EF: You weren’t in Kansas anymore (laughs).
WCT: That was in ’96 – but you say things have changed?
EF: In many ways things have changed and in other ways they haven’t. Israel is a tricky place but young
people are really into changing our lives and are sick and tired of this ongoing war.
WCT: As a gay filmmaker it sounds like you haven’t really experienced any kind of backlash or
discrimination? It sounds like the opposite has happened.
EF: Yes, that’s strange, isn’t it? But it’s true.
WCT: What about for the actor that played Eyal?
EF: He’s amazing. He’s really like the George Clooney of Israel. He’s the biggest star in Israel and he always
says the right things when he’s interviewed and when the film came out decided that it’s part of our process
together that he’s going to push it a little further as this big celebrity in Israel. So when the film came out he
went on national television and talked about this love affair that he had as a man.
WCT: Oh my God, really?
EF: Yeah – he did that and he’s not ashamed of that. He said he was happy he went through that and it was
good and he realized that he wants to be with women but that was a wonderful, important experience for him.
Think of Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise doing that?
WCT: That’s a little harder to picture…
EF: (laughs) Then he decided we should do something for Time Out Tel Aviv and we took this picture where
he was nude hugging me (I was dressed) – it was amazing, a beautiful picture like a John Lennon-Yoko Ono
picture and there’s another one where I’m holding him in his arms. He’s a wonderful man.
WCT: He sounds like it.
EF: I’m talking so fast because they’re waiting for me and I want to keep talking to you because I see how
much you’ve understood the film and not everyone gets all the tough things you’ve been talking about and I
wanted to try to describe what an experience this film was for me and for Israel and hopefully now people in
America will be getting a chance to see it.
WCT: Well, it’s a beautifully nuanced piece and obviously the close collaboration you have with Gal has paid
off. I can’t wait to be the last gay man in Chicago to see Yossi & Jagger.
EF: I’m happy to say it’s at Blockbuster.
WCT: What are you doing next?
EF: The working title is “The Bubble,” which is a term used by Israeli’s to describe life in Tel-Aviv is a love
story between a young, very young, 21, who has just finished his Army service and a young Palestinian. It’s
this love affair between these two men and there’s a lot of complications. The Palestinian is falling in love
with this Israeli and contemplating becoming a suicide bomber at the same time.
WCT: Will it take on elements of that documentary The Garden?
EF: Yeah! And that amazing documentary called Check Points. It will be different aspects of our reality
coming together again but more of a love story between two men.
WCT: That’s one thing that I came away from the film with. In Israel, with everything else that you’ve
experienced, being gay is liked, “Oh, please…” Is that true? Is it the least of our worries?
EF: It’s a combination and I think you’ve pointed that out – being gay in a world which is so macho, being so
fearful of gays – all these things connect and I think it’s important to point that out.
WCT: Well, it’s a wonderful film and I thank you for your time. I wish you all the luck with it and I look
forward to your future work.
Close Encounters of the Celebrity Kind...
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